I have had a number of logos designed in my time and the question of who actually owns the rights to the logos design and use always seems to be a grey area.

Sometimes the designer states once the logo is paid for I completely own the rights. Is there some sort of legal form I should ask the designers to sign?

what is the standard practice for this?

Thanks for your time?
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You should always have your designers sign over legal ownership of the logo to you.

There was a great post on this topic about a year ago by user Eagle.

(moved to Legal)
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I have looked into getting our health and safety logo registered as a trade mark. Costs about ?500. As for the ownership i always get the designer to sign over the rights.
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I am pretty sure that copyright stays with the designer unless it is assigned to you in writing. So to answer your question ensure that whoever you use agrees to assign copyright on completion, most reputable logo designers will already have a contract that they will sign and post to you on completion, check first though.
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I have looked into getting our health and safety logo registered as a trade mark. Costs about ?500. As for the ownership i always get the designer to sign over the rights.


For a comparative quote, you might want to speak to Phillip Cooper at www.crossguard.info (http://www.crossguard.info)

PS please don't add those links to the end of your posts.
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It should state clearly in the contract if teh project is large enough to warrant one. Its a clear clause and should be agreed before the assignment has been granted. It should reflect on the price.

Other times, the copyright can simply be stated on the invoice/official quotation.

Either way, it is good practice for the designer to discuss this issue with the client as the client is not always aware of their options. This is normal practice for us.

If nothing is mentioned in some of your cases, the rights are probably retained by the designer.

This is only a very short version of what can be said on this subject and hope it helps.

Happy to discuss at length if you PM me.

Thanks

Kay
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We always state in writing with each invoice that the finished and chosen creation belongs to the client and we have no rights to it at all - except to show it on our portfolio if agreed.

Totally agree, this is a grey area with many designers and unfortunately it can lead to legal issues further down the line. Especially when the client then goes on to change designers for example! Make sure you get the rights to your logo/any artwork and also in very format.

Jacqui
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Thanks for the replies. Much appreciated.

another logo grey area is that now and again I like to get my logos retouched so the main theme and design of the logo remains the same but a new different designer gives it a nice update.

This is why its important to me to make sure that I legally own the original logo outright and also from the second designer that works on the logo. Creacom, when you totally sign over the rights of your work to a client, technically that client could have subcontracted your design, isn't this a risk or do you see this as simply extra business?

I also started another thread in the main business discussion thread about logo and trademark issues. I think I may have confused people with my ramblings but if some of you logo guys could take a look at it that would be great.
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The general principle of copyright is that the 'author' (in your case the designer) of the any copyright work owns the copyright in the work, unless there is a written agreement to the contrary or unless the author is employed and the work was done as part of his/her normal duties of employment, then the employer owns the copyright in the work.

Assuming there is copyright in the logo, unless there is an agreement to the contrary as a matter of law, the designer of your logo would own the copyright. The fact you paid him/her a commision is irrelevant.

Thus a general rule is always get the designer to assign the copyright in any designs as part of the commission. Get this agreement at the tendering stage, as otherwise if the logo is designed and you pay your commision, the designer is less likely to play ball as they already have the commision from you.

Please note for any assignment of copyright to be effective it must be in written form. A one page copyright assignment is sufficient to do this, they are not complicated documents. Most designers should have such an assignment to hand and it can be incoprorated into an tender/sale agreement.
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Creacom, when you totally sign over the rights of your work to a client, technically that client could have subcontracted your design, isn't this a risk or do you see this as simply extra business?


Due to the way we communicate and the info we gather from the client I am sure we would pick up on our services being subcontracted from the start.

Our Ts&Cs cover this type of situation and what would happen if we were sub contracted out to design for another agency (which we have been in the past.)

A recent case of this was when we were knowingly subcontracted to design promo material for a well known food ad drink company in Scotland. The design agency who approached us made it clear in their contract that we would get no credit for the work at all!!! So they made up with it with the price they paid us!!! :D

Jacqui
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A recent case of this was when we were knowingly subcontracted to design promo material for a well known food ad drink company in Scotland. The design agency who approached us made it clear in their contract that we would get no credit for the work at all!!! So they made up with it with the price they paid us!!! :D

Jacqui



I can relate to this. One client is so protective over their brand, they do not allow us to exhibit it in anyway shape or form including the portfolio. Their contract states this.
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well I have already learned so much, can't thank you guys enough. So I can have written into a logo design contract whatever I like as long as agreed in advance with the designers. Awesome, opens up a lot of possibilities I never thought I could ask for. So I guess as a client you might be paying more for certain specific terms but in the long run its worth it to avoid confusion later on.
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So I guess as a client you might be paying more for certain specific terms but in the long run its worth it to avoid confusion later on.

Not necessarily, we dont charge extra just because we state the rights as being that of the client upon payment. We do that as standard as Im sure many others do.

Jacqui
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You can always try by going back to your designers to formally request in writing that they hand the copyrights over to you since you have paid for the work in full. You'll either get a yes or a no but I am sure you will be pleasantly surprised. Ask for the rights but state that they have the freedom to show off the designs in their portfolio.

Hope this helps.

Kay
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I always make sure I get full IPR to any designs I have done. Wont do business without it :)
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another logo grey area is that now and again I like to get my logos retouched so the main theme and design of the logo remains the same but a new different designer gives it a nice update.

This is why its important to me to make sure that I legally own the original logo outright and also from the second designer that works on the logo.
As well as the legal stuff, i.e. stating in the client-supplier contract that this is a work for hire contract and that all ownership and copyright transfers to the client, you also have to get the technical stuff stated in the contract too, so that other designers and yourself can continue to work on the logo and develop other graphics with the same branding.

This includes stating that all source files should be delivered to the client in a layered vector format, e.g. Adobe Illustrator, and in a vector format where possible (rather than converting layers to bitmap), and where fonts are used, the exact details of the fonts should be supplied. It is also a good idea to explain up front to the designer how you intend to take the design and branding forward in the future, so the designer can make the design easier to maintain in those areas.

When the second designer comes along, the client-supplier contract will be different, since they wont be creating the design and transferring the rights to you, they will be granted a temporary license to use your existing design in their derivative work, you will continue to own the rights to your existing design, and again you will need to word the contract as a work for hire contract so that the ownership rights of the derivative work are transferred to you, as well as the source files too.
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Well what an incredible coincidence, I have been informed by my solicitor today that after an 18 month wait my European trademark application was successful. All I have to do now is pay €850 to the OHIM in Alicante Spain and my trademark will be registered.

Ok now for some stupid question for those of you that design logos, some of you must have done logos for registered trademarks or companies that were going to submit the logo you designed for possible trademark:

1. Does the OHIM in Alicante Spain sound legit to you. The OHIM website does have all the details of my mark so I'm guessing its above board?

2. My mark also carries the details of the colours of my logo and obviously the design. If I wanted some different versions of my logo designed, as long as the design was roughly the same with the same colours, can a new designer do this for me?

3. As the mark is now officially a registered trademark in all of Europe, what letters can my logo display?

4. What price should I be looking at for a logo designer to redo my logo with the registered mark letters obviously signing over total rights to me?

Thanks again.
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In answer to your questions:-

1. OHIM stands for 'Office for Harmonisation in the Internal Market', or more widely referred to in the UK Trade Mark Attorney Profession as the 'Community Trade Marks Office'. It is an agency of the European Union and is very legit and is the pan-EU wide Trade Mark Office. Its deals with Community wide trade mark and design registrations, however it is not deal with Patent registration those are dealt with by the European patent Office based in Munich.

2. Presumably you own the Community Trade Mark and assuming you own the copyirght in the logo as well, and we have dealt with that question on another thread, then yes the new designer can base a design on the old logo. Just make sure any copyright in the new logo is assigned to you asuming such copyright is created.

3. Once the CTM is officially registered you can call it a 'registered trade mark' and use an R in a circle device. Look at a Coca Cola can to see how CC use these terms. You can not use these terms however in relation to unregistered marks, that is a criminal offence.

4. Unfortunately I can't answer point 4 and I will leave that to another poster.

Good Luck.
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Thanks a lot for the response Sol, really helpful. After such a long wait will be great to have the new logos done with the R. I went through the trademark process out of interest as much as anything else which is why I don't know too much about it. So when people use the little TM on the logo, is that displayed during the process and then the R once its been successful?

These forums so far have been a fantastc resource for me so if any pro logo designers would like to quote me for the following job that would be great, send me a pm or whatever:

I will supply the original which I have full copyright etc. I would like the logo to be redone putting in the little trademark R. I would like a few sizes. Full copyright and complete and full IP must be signed over to my LTD co in advance. Thanks
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The TM logo has no legal significance in the UK. Sometimes you see it used in relation to marks which are subject of pending applications sometimes in relation to marks which are totally descriptive and can never be registered - you often see the later in relation to quite descriptive straplines which often can not be registered without massive prior use. Next time you are on the tube look on print adverts on station walls and in the tube carriages you will see widespread use of the TM symbol strapline usage. The TM symbol is often used to differenciate an unregistered mark from the surrounding text to effectively say this is my mark and in the case of marks borderline descriptive 'educate' the public this is a brand not a description. Marks which lack distinctive character can in time be registered if they are used on a scale to prove they have become distinctive through use and have 'educated' the public they are a badge of origin.

However if you have registered the mark use the R in circle symbol when you feel it is neccessary - don't overdo it as that can make the text of your promotional literature a mismash - but it is a legally recognised term and if someone uses it in relation to a mark which is not registered it is a criminal offence. There are very few examples of this legal sanction ever being enforced, but its the duty of the local trading standards authority to enforce this rule. It is not a legal reguirement you use the symbol in relation to a registered trade mark, just advisable as it protects the mark to a greater extent and warns others off you have a registration and have the means to defend your brand.

You can also use the words 'registered trade mark' or '..[mark].....is a registered trade of......[registered owners name]...'. Look at a Coca Cola can to see how they use the R symbol. Also look at the promotional literature of a well known brand and you will see examples of the above in action.

This link may be of help:-

http://www.pinsentmasons.com/PDF/UsingaTradeMarkcorrectly.pdf

Hope that helps.
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I have looked into getting our health and safety logo registered as a trade mark. Costs about ?500. As for the ownership i always get the designer to sign over the rights.
Sounds a little steep, that...

I am pretty sure that copyright stays with the designer unless it is assigned to you in writing.
Absolutely correct. The best designers assign copyright to the client automatically at no extra cost. I produce a separate, hard copy document sent via post (I even pay for the stamp! :p). I'm aware though that some charge for assignment, which I think is very bad practice.

I can relate to this. One client is so protective over their brand, they do not allow us to exhibit it in anyway shape or form including the portfolio. Their contract states this.
For a designer to relinquish 'portfolio rights' it would normally cost a lot more.

Mark :)
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