Hi All, really need some good advice!

Need to make saves to my business and at the moment I use a chartered accountant! Which is costing my business about 1.5k a year (Ltd Company 60k turn over)

Now I have heard non chartered accountants are a LOT cheaper, now my question is! Would it be wise to use a non chartered accountant for a Ltd company and what is the different between them!

Andy
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A Chartered Accountant would have had years of training and will also be bound by rules of their institute, this would include maintaining a record of continued professional development so they should always be up to date. That does not mean that a non chartered accountant does not maintain similar standards.

Have you looked around for another qualified accountant. Usually a smaller practice would not charge as much as a larger firm, but obviously this depends on the full suite of services you require.
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A Chartered Accountant would have had years of training and will also be bound by rules of their institute, this would include maintaining a record of continued professional development so they should always be up to date. That does not mean that a non chartered accountant does not maintain similar standards.

Agreed, there are other non chartered bodies such as the AAT who still require their members to undertake CPD, hold professional indemnity insurance, and only allow them to qualify after both exams and experience.

I'm not sure so much whether its the chartered/non chartered that drives the price - often I think it's the size of practice and business model used. Eg many larger high street chartered firms charge by 6 minute intervals, with different charge out rates for the class off staff undertaking the work. Often accounts preparation will be done by a junior assistant, with the qualified accountant only signing off the work at the end.

Contrast that with a smaller practice like many of us on here who undertake all or most of the work ourselves, and charge fixed fees.

Then look at Elaine (CheapAccounting) who is a chartered accountant and it not expensive at all ;)

The bottom line is to find someone you like, trust, and can work well with.

Good luck :)
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Jenni is correct - don't let the qualification be the focus.
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chartered accountants are very good....but you're paying for the knowledge you will probably never use. We run accounts/tax for similar sized companies that we paying the same and more, they now pay ?50-?00+VAT a year....massive saving and I'm sure all sound agree they get a better service.

Thanks,

Rob. :)

p.s. good luck finding someone - remember you need to get on with this person, as they will be able to help you no-end, but you need to feel like you can talk to them! :
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Have you actually discussed your accountant's charges? Have a chat before jumping ship - they may just be able to adjust their fees rather than loose you.
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Thats great advice many thanks, are keep on looking for a local company to me, I have just emailed 5 accountants from the AAT I really aim looking to save over 1k a year on this side of the business and with savings made from the free banking from the co op (member of fed of small business) I should survive the economic down turn

Andy
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I think businesses will start to review all costs over the next little while so it may be that your current accountant will be willing to review their fees given the current market. I should have thought that this would not be an uncommon occurence in the next little while :D
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One of the key things that will affect your fees is the quality of the books that you provide. If you keep good records, and in most cases this does not mean a pile of unlinked spreadsheets, which are reconciled to the bank account you can leave your accountant to concentrate on the accounting side, not the bookkeeping side.

I'd suggest that you discuss this with your existing accountant, and also make it a key point with any potential replacement that you speak to. The better your records, the better the quality of the information available to you to run your business - the annual accounts are pretty well useless for this!

As others have said, the costs look quite high to me (but not ?,000 too high!) so you might be dealing with a firm in the wrong area of the market. As somebody has pointed out, you may be paying for knowledge that you won't use, but an alternative firm with a different qualification may not have all of the knowledge that you do actually need.
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chartered accountants are very good....but you're paying for the knowledge you will probably never use. We run accounts/tax for similar sized companies that we paying the same and more, they now pay ?50-?00+VAT a year....massive saving and I'm sure all sound agree they get a better service.

Thanks,

Rob. :)

p.s. good luck finding someone - remember you need to get on with this person, as they will be able to help you no-end, but you need to feel like you can talk to them! :

Slight generalisation there Rob .... you pay an Accountant for his knowledge in that he can help/get you out of the problem. For instance mine is FCA and more but I am not paying for the qualification, just the service!
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Agreed, there are other non chartered bodies such as the AAT who still require their members to undertake CPD, hold professional indemnity insurance, and only allow them to qualify after both exams and experience.

Maybe I'm being harsh, but I think of AAT as the qualification that someone who hasn't been to university does prior to CIMA/ACCA. At a headline level, I would be wary of an AAT person offering their services as an accountant. A bookkeeper yes, but surely not an accountant.

I would suggest you either look for someone who is a member of one of the chartered institutes: ICAEW (or Scottish/Irish), ACCA or CIMA. If CIMA, ensure they have the small company experience (and practising certificate) needed to effectively help you, and I would respectfully suggest avoiding anyone chartered with a country outside the British isles (for the same reason).

HOWEVER I would be happy to use someone non-qualified, or technician, etc IF I was comfortable with their experience and skills. That is perhaps hard for a non-accountant to gauge.
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I think that is a little harsh on AAT - it is a perfectly acceptable accounting qualifications for those who wish to practice.

As with everything the golden rule (whether qualified, not qualified AAT, ACCA, ACA etc) is to do what you are capable of. The hard trick is finding a person who opeartes within these boundaries :rolleyes:
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I think it's a case of knowing what you need.

Is it just straight forward preparation of accounts and returns for a ltd company turning over a small profit.

Or is the company looking at growing, are your profits growing, and you need to be thinking about tax planning and profit extraction a bit better? Do you operate in an industry which is subject to additional legislation, or particular rules or schemes? Do you just have a few basic employees, or are you operating share option schemes or other employee benefits. Are you looking to refinance? Do you have outside shareholders? Are there significant tax losses, brought forward, or likely, that you need to think about.

If the answers to questions like this are all a resounding No, then an unqualified accountant should be fine, but make sure that they are part of a professional network to ensure that they are having regular training and keeping up to date of all legislative changes.

If the answers are yes, then a Chartered/Certified accountant is probably the way to go.

I don't think anyone can make blanket statements about is best for you without knowing what kind of complexities are involved.

Hope this helps.
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Maybe I'm being harsh, but I think of AAT as the qualification that someone who hasn't been to university does prior to CIMA/ACCA. At a headline level, I would be wary of an AAT person offering their services as an accountant. A bookkeeper yes, but surely not an accountant.

Just to clarify I am an AAT member in practice (and went to uni before that), and I would hope my contributions to UKBF demonstrate that MAATs are perfectly capable accountants. Plenty of MAATs are bookkeepers, plenty use it as a stepping stone to chartered, but plenty of us are accountants in practice. By the time you have a few years under your belt and maintain CPD, I don't see the problem. Try telling the FMAAT who's run their own practice for 20 years they aren't (or shouldn't be) an accountant! ;)

Thank you Elaine for your support :)
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In response to Jennie;

I can also say that i have come across Chartered Accountants, usually gentlemen, working from home, or on their own from a small office, approaching retirement age, who don't have a full practising certificate, and therefore don't keep as up to date as maybe they should, and who just do "a bit to keep their finger in". Some of the most ill-advised advice can come from such sources.
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Thank you Elaine for your support :)

No problem - I knew you would respond anyway but I thought I would add my views.

To be quote honest though I think the quality of your posts speak for themselves :p
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No problem - I knew you would respond anyway but I thought I would add my views.

To be quote honest though I think the quality of your posts speak for themselves :p
Cheers me dear :D
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In response to Jennie;

I can also say that i have come across Chartered Accountants, usually gentlemen, working from home, or on their own from a small office, approaching retirement age, who don't have a full practising certificate, and therefore don't keep as up to date as maybe they should, and who just do "a bit to keep their finger in". Some of the most ill-advised advice can come from such sources.
Thanks Sandra.
As has been said many many many times on the qualified vs unqualified debate, you can get great unqualifieds and rubbish qualifieds, and vice versa.
It all boils down to the calibre of the person, and not the association of which they are a member, or not, as the case may be :)
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Thanks Sandra.
As has been said many many many times on the qualified vs unqualified debate, you can get great unqualifieds and rubbish qualifieds, and vice versa.
It all boils down to the calibre of the person, and not the association of which they are a member, or not, as the case may be :)

Can we fight about which association is best though :D:D
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Can we fight about which association is best though :D:D
NO!!! :D:D:D
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NO!!! :D:D:D

Such a spoil sport :rolleyes:
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Such a spoil sport :rolleyes:
Most likely! Feel free to go ahead though, if you really want to :D
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Most likely! Feel free to go ahead though, if you really want to :D

Far too much of a wimp :redface:
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okay I've really put my foot in it now. My apologies if any offence was caused. However, I genuinely did not believe that then intention of the AAT qualification was to enable someone to function as an accountant in their own right.

I know very little about the course, so will simply shut up before I dig deeper.

Jenny, I thought/assumed you were chartered - so that in itself speaks volumes.
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okay I've really put my foot in it now. My apologies if any offence was caused. However, I genuinely did not believe that then intention of the AAT qualification was to enable someone to function as an accountant in their own right.

I know very little about the course, so will simply shut up before I dig deeper.

Jenny, I thought/assumed you were chartered - so that in itself speaks volumes.
Thank you James :)
No hard feelings at all, I don't think the AAT push our status hard enough so I'm not surprised those who don't know enough assume we're 'just technicians' (I can't stand that word!). I know the chartered courses must be more in depth than the AAT, but it's definitely enough (plus experience and proper CPD) for general practice if that's the way you want to go.:D
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Thank you James :)
No hard feelings at all, I don't think the AAT push our status hard enough so I'm not surprised those who don't know enough assume we're 'just technicians' (I can't stand that word!). I know the chartered courses must be more in depth than the AAT, but it's definitely enough (plus experience and proper CPD) for general practice if that's the way you want to go.:D

totally agree - on the chartered course I studied things like CAPM plus other stuff which of course I have well forgotten and never use now anyway.

I also seem to remember spending a lot of time playing cards in between lectures and exams :rolleyes:
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