Hello there

I am in the process of starting up a bookkeeping business, inc management accounts and also considering vat, self assesments and payroll (however have limited experience in the latter 3). I am AAT qualified and just began ACCA.

2 main questions really-

1) How easy will it be for me to become confident in VAT returns, self assesments and payroll. Are they easy enough to get the hang of, baring in mind my clients are likely to be sole traders or very small businesses (less than 10 employees). Also, all these software products that are available for tax computations and payroll, do you actually need to have a good knowledge of the topic to use them, or could a monkey use them and get the job done??

2) I have never had 'clients' before in this sense, and dont want to appear unprofessional or inexperienced. So I thought i could maybe get some advice on the initial meeting with the client? ie could anybody offer a comprehensive list of questions/ things I need to find out about the individual business that will give me a detailed view from which I could make a full analysis of what I can offer as well as familiarising myself with the business in a smooth process.

Thanks Guys

Jen
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Hi Jennie

With respect, you shouldn't take on any work unless you a competent to carry it out. Start by offering services which you are confident with, then gradually add to your services as your knowledge and experience increase.
I can't really comment on the use of tax software because I don't offer tax services, but I would imagine you would be putting yourself in a pretty dangerous situation if you rely on software which performs calculations you do not fully understand.
Have you checked with AAT and ACCA to find out what services they allow students to offer? I am a member of AAT and they provide valuable support to their members in practice.
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I have to agree. You should not offer your services to the public until you have gained the experience by working under qualified supervision.

Sheelagh is exactly right about the tax returns. The mechanics of the form is the easy part, it is the understanding behind it that clients pay for.

Try and get a job with a local firm of accountants to learn the ropes before strating out on your own.
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Your posts concern me ( please don't take that the wrong way)

A mechanic can fix my car by automation but if (s)he didn't know what was under the bonnet then i'd be in trouble.

A couple of things to consider:

1. If you are AAT qualified then have you considered ATT instead of, or before, ACCA? ATT gives good foundation tax knowledge which would cover virtually all scenarios that you would encounter with the small business. Also, ACCA will not allow you to practice at this moment in time.

2. It is clear that you need a mentor, or someone to bounce ideas off and obtain knowledge from when situations arise that you have not the experience of. Posting on here will help to some extent but will not be enough. Try approaching people in your area who will be able to assist - maybe offer a mutual benefit arrangement with them.

3. The questions to ask at the intitial meeting will beome apparent over time with experience, and from what services you can provide the potential client with. Until then, you can't really go wrong by ascertaining what the clients main drivers are and detailing and discussing how you can meet them. Make sure that you give the client what they want rather than what you want to sell them.

4. Taxcalc is a great little package and low cost. This will cover all your requirements. And there is an abundance of low cost payroll options to choose from.
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i seem to have un-nerved some people. I appreciate your advice and concerns, maybe i didnt convey myself very well, the 'monkey' comment probably didnt help either. i just wanted to be blunt to get a straight answer as i have posted on forums before and not got an actual response to the question i asked... but everyone seems on the ball here!! lol

i have been working in industry for a couple of years, with good exposure, but its a completely different environment. e.g I post monthly wages onto the nominal (is running payroll much more complicated than this?), and i have seen to the quarterly VAT returns, and I have studied the taxation module for ACCA. I suppose what i'm saying is that I do have basic knowledge, what im apprehensive about is transferring this from studies and being an employee.. to actually running it myself. And as regards the software, i have only ever used sage and cant afford to buy that for my business, and therefore am unsure as to what other packages can do.

In response to specific queries... I have sent of my AAT member in practice form detailing what I am wanting to do, so no doubt if they have any probs they will let me know. I chose ACCA because I do intend to carry on in industry (i am working full time, this is just a part time effort to bring in extra cash as my partner has recently lost his job). Mentor wise- my boss is AAT and ACA qualified and is understanding of my new venture and willing to offer guidance.

After this life story i would be interested to know if peoples concerns are still rife, or if i have somewhat calmed them?

Honesty appreciated,

Jen
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Hi,

I'd mirror what some of the others have said, get some experience working within a small practice this should get you good exposure to most areas and if you're lucky they'll pay for your ACCA. Besides ACCA won't give you a practicing certificate unless you have three years practice experiance anyway.

You'll get there, it takes time and often a lot of S**ty jobs first
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No, the monkey comment didn't help :)

I am glad that you appreciate honesty as it is best policy and obviously given with good intentions.

1. It may just be a part time venture to bring in extra cash but your clients will expect the same service levels from that of a full time business on the high street. Bear that in mind with your decision making

2. Your boss may be AAT / ACCA but will be of no use whatsoever unless he has ever worked in or run a practice before.

3. The tax module of ACCA will be of insufficent help for you in public practice.

Your second post does not allay fears but increases them! The work that you embark on is not overly difficult for someone of your level and experience but it will take time to learn and be proficient in, and you cannot do that at the expense of clients.

I would reiterate that you talk to someone who has been there seen it done it and would be around to guide you in the early stages.

At this stage, the problem is that you don't know what you don't know and there is far too much to go into on here.

In the meantime, be sure to get your PI cover sorted and register with the ICO.
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I can only agree with what the others have said.

Your 1st question indicates you aren't confident in areas like VAT Returns and Payroll, though you've now said you've worked in the industry for a couple of years. Although it shouldn't be difficult for someone with your qualifications and experience - I do wonder a little why you have asked this.

Actual practice experience, even if just a little, will provide you with enough insight that you will know how to deal with clients and the various tasks they request as a professional.

To answer your 2nd question, I'd expect most here would agree this couldn't be summed up within a forum reply but would more more towards publishing a small(ish) book. Something real experience would sort out for you.

As the others have also said, qualifications is one thing but experience can count for a whole lot more when offering services publicly. Your boss/mentor is a good start but unless he/she has experience in the areas you have raised (ie SME client services) it may be of limited help for your specific needs.

Gain confidence in your own ability, along with some real experience before looking at venturing out to provide a full SME service on your own. And as ARK said, you have to consider the requirements to getting an ACCA practice certificate in the future.

Best of luck though - and keep on asking the questions!

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/)
Accountancy & Bookkeeping Forums (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/Forums/tabid/59/Default.aspx) | Accountant & Bookkeeper Blogs (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/NewsampBlogs/AccountantBlogs/tabid/595/Default.aspx) | Company Formations from ?1! (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/OurPartners/UKCompanyFormationsOnline/tabid/667/Default.aspx) | Business Start-Up Package (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/Membership/MembershipPackages/NewBusinessStartUpPackage/tabid/635/Default.aspx)
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I am somewhat confused now.

Why would the AAT offer a members in practice scheme, if the course doesn't equip you with the skills you need. Secondly, I am going to be targeting sole traders; florists, hairdressers etc. which follow less complicated standards. Thirdly, a lot of sole traders do their books and personal self assesments themselves without any experience or qualifications. Surely this wouldn't even be allowed??

Specific responses David T:

'I do wonder a little why you have asked this.'- to reiterate and expand, i work for an investment company who owns 4 subsidiaries that I do the books for, and take it to monthly management accounts- p&l and balance sheet. I post gross, net, Paye etc (wages) into the nominal and submit their VAT returns. I ask the question as I was wanting to understand if actually running the payroll for a business with five employees actually encompasses much else than this, or if this is just the brunt of the accountancy and the rest is just admin. Same kind of query with the VAT.

DFL:

Yes my boss has worked in practice, and he produces the financial statements for the 4 companies I have previously mentioned. I would assume the ACCA taxation module would be enough to undertake sole trader and small business tax computations. Surely the grittier stuff would be for larger companies. I have my PII, forgive me but what is ICO?

Thanks again

Jen
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The course should equip you with the skills you need, but like most qualifications it may not provide the real experience needed to leap into provide a public and professional service by oneself.

As for the members in practice, I presume this is geared towards those employed within practice and thus already gaining the experience... to provide them with a qualification too.

With people doing their own books - not many of them are confident but plough through it slowly, with errors at times to save a few quid... and a world of difference between this and offering it as a professional service!

Running payroll requires a bit more than the journal entries needed to enter the summary data. If you can somehow get a foot in to work on this with your payroll department the experience should help you greatly.

You might not be too far from being able to provide services by yourself directly to business... just a few areas that some experience will help with. If you can possibly get 1 or 2 trial jobs through existing contacts it might make all the difference.

As Dormer said, until you are confident and proficient it will be difficult to use clients as guinea pigs when they are expecting a professional and competent service.

David Toohey
The Accountants Circle (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/)
Accountancy & Bookkeeping Forums (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/Forums/tabid/59/Default.aspx) | Accountant & Bookkeeper Blogs (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/NewsampBlogs/AccountantBlogs/tabid/595/Default.aspx) | Company Formations from ?1! (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/OurPartners/UKCompanyFormationsOnline/tabid/667/Default.aspx) | Business Start-Up Package (http://www.accountantscircle.co.uk/Membership/MembershipPackages/NewBusinessStartUpPackage/tabid/635/Default.aspx)
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This is not entirely aimed at this thread, and apologies for hijacking, but why do people think its so easy to just go out and set up as a bookkeeper?

No accounting packages are not that easy that a 'monkey' could work them, plus, there is a hell of alot more to Payroll than just posting the figures to the nominal accounts, I myself am still learning and have studied it and been doing payroll for a year.

I am ACCA qualified and am currently offering bookkeeping, VAT and Payroll services and I find that I still learn new things everyday. On paper I am more than qualified to be a bookkeeper, however every case is different, and I dont believe you start learning until you start doing it, just like driving a car if you like.

I find it extremely frustrating that people think its so easy to become a bookkeeper, coupled with the fact that I have spent alot of time sorting out the mistakes that these people have made.

VAT is a VERY complex area, not one you should mess around with, and I am still learning new things from this all the time. I think the helpline is very good, and if I am unsure I call them.

I think good bookkeepers are underestimated and I think only people who have been at the hands of a bad one really appreciate a good one when they do find them!
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Jennie

Have you received a rule book from ACCA? If not request one or down load from their website.

Offering management account and taxation to the public will fall foul of the the ACCA's practice definition. As per the rule if you do not hold ACCA's practising certificate you can not yourself hold as an accountant. You can offer bookkeeping, vat and payroll services. You are not allowed to offer management account, cashflow, taxation etc as external entities relies upon those informations.

If you are a AAT member you can apply for MIP. Generally AAT members get quite a lot help from AAT. Also AAT also require you to get a practising certificate. As per AAT's rule, if you do not have a certificate you can not associate AAT with your practice.

I have seen some of the previous posters asking for help in the area they are not competent. However I do agree that if you have some experience working in practice would help.

As fas as software goes, there is proverb, junk in junk out. So what ever you input, you will get the same out. The software are todays' necessity and they are fine as long as they work. When something goes wrong, I just wondered how you going to fix them.

However for tax I just buy some good books, Tolley's Tax wise comes in two volume. I would not rely on ACCA's tax paper as tax is huge area. VAT can get complicated but I use again Tolley's VAt cost ?30.00 but is worth it.

I think some one in accountingweb.co website suggested that before you start up go and buy all the text book (qualification you have) and read them again.

I have got a list of the questions, I was given by an AAT member ( obviously not from this forum) if you pm me your email I will forward it to you.

I think best way as Sheelagh sugested start with very basic, then slowly build it up. Also find a local accountant who would hold your hand as you would need one!.

Good Luck
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Offering management account and taxation to the public will fall foul of the the ACCA's practice definition. As per the rule if you do not hold ACCA's practising certificate you can not yourself hold as an accountant. You can offer bookkeeping, vat and payroll services. You are not allowed to offer management account, cashflow, taxation etc as external entities relies upon those informations.

This was my immediate concern when I read your post. Even if you're fully AAT qualified, once you become a student member of ACCA you may not carry out anything more than basic bookkeeping (so no self assessments or mgmt accts) under their rules.

AAT is more than enough to go on and be an accountant in practice, but you've got to get the experience first. And of course if you're an ACCA student you have to obey the above rules. If you're training for ACCA in a practice then by the time you've got ACCA after your name you should be pretty well set.
In the meantime, I would recommend asking friends and family if they need bookkeeping done, to get experience. Start out fairly small, and see where it takes you.

Best of luck :)
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Hi Guys

Nicster: I hope you feel better after venting your frustration, you have obviously had these feelings building up for a while, its good to get them off your chest. I would just like to point out that I do not think setting up a bookkeeping business is by any means easy- hence why I am asking for advice on this forum. I simply posed the question as to how difficult these packages are to use with limited payroll experience- and thanks to your insight i now know!

RAL and Jenni- Thanks for the advice, I haven't read the ACCA rulebook. I have applied for the AAT members in practice and read all of their terms of practice, and there is no suggestion that certain services are limited. So am I to believe that if I hadn't have applied to study ACCA after finishing AAT, I would have been able to offer more services due to the restrictions set by ACCA. I would also like to point out that I wasn't planning on being a practicing member of ACCA only AAT. Take it this doesn't alter the point you are both making?

thanks

jen X
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No fustration at all Jennie, just a mere comment, thats all.
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RAL and Jenni- Thanks for the advice, I haven't read the ACCA rulebook. I have applied for the AAT members in practice and read all of their terms of practice, and there is no suggestion that certain services are limited. So am I to believe that if I hadn't have applied to study ACCA after finishing AAT, I would have been able to offer more services due to the restrictions set by ACCA. I would also like to point out that I wasn't planning on being a practicing member of ACCA only AAT. Take it this doesn't alter the point you are both making?

Sorry Jen, the ACCA rulebook still stands :(
Even if you had been an FMAAT for 10 years with your own large practice - as soon as you take up student membership with ACCA you are relegated to bookkeeping to TB only, unless under the supervision of a qualified chartered. Them's the rules. If you desperately want to become chartered, then stick with bookkeeping until you qualify.

AAT will still give you a MiP licence for taxation, company accounts, mgmt accounts etc, but as the ACCA haven't evaluated you with their exams, it doesn't matter a bean, they won't allow you to do it under your own steam.

Sorry :(

If your eventual aim is to work for yourself, you don't need to be chartered, as long as you have got experience. If you have to work in a practice to get experience and they are getting you through ACCA, you may as well take them up on it! ;)
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Jen: ok I see what you are sayin. I've now had a look at the ACCA rulebook, and everything that you have said is there, however I have found one point that may work to my benefit and I would like to see what you think... sorry for harping on about it...

quote: 'Any accountancy services, other than basic book-keeping services, can only be provided for reward by an ACCA student working for, and under the supervision of, a person who, in the opinion of Council, is suitably qualified and/or suitably experienced. The ACCA student may undertake such work either as an employee or as a self-employed person.

In my job it is just me and the group financial controller doing the accountancy. He acts as my mentor, is ACA and has worked in practice. Do you think I would I be able to count him as my 'supervision.'

Thanks

Jen
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Hi Jen
I'm afraid I don't know - I'm AAT and run my own practice; as soon as I found out I couldn't do that if I became an ACCA student I stopped looking into ACCA.

From the sounds of it, as long as you have someone willing to vouch for you, and both they and the ACCA agree, it sounds like you might be ok - good luck :)
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Sorry girls but I don't think this counts as working under supervision. If it was your mentors business it would be different but not as it is. The ACCA apply stiff penalties to anyone seen to be holding themselves out in practice without a certificate.
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Thanks zeno. Yes I would totally agree with that thought, if it wasn't for the fact it said ' self employed'. If it was your mentor's business you coudn't possibly be self employed, so the only way I can see that clause making sense is with the scenario I am in.
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I have always taken that clause to mean if you subcontract to another firm of accountants. That way you are technically self emlployed but you are still working under supervision.
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quote: 'Any accountancy services, other than basic book-keeping services, can only be provided for reward by an ACCA student working for, and under the supervision of, a person who, in the opinion of Council, is suitably qualified and/or suitably experienced. The ACCA student may undertake such work either as an employee or as a self-employed person.

In my job it is just me and the group financial controller doing the accountancy. He acts as my mentor, is ACA and has worked in practice. Do you think I would I be able to count him as my 'supervision.'



IMO, answer is No. Does he hold practising licence? Does he have a PII? Does he offer his services to the public as an accountant. You may find as he is working in industry and not in public practice. He may not be eligible as a principal.

http://www.accaglobal.com/documents/pc_requirements.pdf

Also go to http://www.accaglobal.com/members/professionalstandards/
for further info on practising


From the sounds of it, as long as you have someone willing to vouch for you, and both they and the ACCA agree, it sounds like you might be ok - good luck :)

To get practising certificate or to pracise vouching is not enough. ACCA has very strick rules who could be a principal i.e. mentor.

I have always taken that clause to mean if you subcontract to another firm of accountants. That way you are technically self emlployed but you are still working under supervision.

I agree with Zeno, if it is subcontract work it will count as under supervision and also counts towards your experience.

I think it is already clarified that even AAT grant you a practising certificate and you are an acca student or member, ACCA' rule will not allow you to do so. ACCA used to grant permssion to allow you to practise if other body's rule allow you to do so. Now ACCA says NO if you are a member of ACCA you have to follow their rule.
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Thanks for the opinions and clarifications. As my original post said, the main thing is that ACCA are ok with the agreement, so it's best to ask them what is suitable for supervision.
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Hi

I cannot understand why the ACCA are so strict.

Institute of Certified Bookkeepers allows associate members (who have passed up to level 2 manual bookkeeping) to pay for a practising certificate as long as they buy Professional Indemnity Insurance. The only thing they state is that you don't take on work that is beyond your capabilities that you have studied to which most people would not want to take on work that is beyond what they feel comfortable with so not a problem.

Alison
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Whoops. Here we go with the battle of the institutes...
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Go Alison! I'm with you!!!
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Zeno, yeah I know but.... ;)
Alison I know what you mean. I do appreciate that ACCA are protecting their reputation by only allowing their full members to practice. However that is effectively saying they don't trust another organisation's qualifications - if a different association is willing to grant a practising certificate, then one likes to think that certifies a degree of competency!
The example I cited above of a FMAAT with 10 years experience as a practising accountant losing all rights to practice accountancy on becoming a student of the ACCA seems ridiculous. I would have thought in situations like that, there should be some compromise. After all, the ACCA may be losing out on quality members, not to mention the membership fees.
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I have a question for Jenni, sorry to everyone else for hijack but it is sort of relevant, I am currently studying for ICB, and in the process of starting my own bookkeeping business, I have 20 years of experience in bookkeeping / accounts and am confident on Sage accounts and payroll but have no formal qualifications hence ICB as it is quick to gain and will give me some creditibility, however I am already planning to gain further qualifications and am looking at AAT, am I right in thinking that you can gain this qualification and get a Accounting in Practice certificate without having supervised experience?
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Hi Feldon

From the AAT website (http://www.aat.org.uk/members/content/item1687/):

"You need to provide details of a minimum of 1 year’s relevant work experience (or the equivalent part-time) to demonstrate that you have put some of the skills you have gained during your AAT training to practical use. Your employer, or a qualified accountant if you have your own practice, must verify your work experience.

Before you apply for membership, you’ll need to have been a student member of the AAT for at least 12 months, and have achieved levels 3 and 4 of the AAT Accounting Qualification.

You can have a qualification or professional experience in place of level 3 provided that it was agreed by you centre as being sufficient for you to commence your studies at level 4."

HTH :)
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Hi all, after reading some of the threads, I must show my side of the equation. I have worked in an accounting role for over twenty years. I have also prepared accounts to be submitted to Companies House and the Inland Revenue. I can do VAT returns, Coporation Tax Returns and Self Assesments.

I also know an lot about the Constructions Industry, however, I am just undertaking my AAT, and have been able (due to my experience) to move straight to the intermmediate stage. Great you may say.... but there is so much in there that I have never covered. Costings for a start, although I have written a costing package to be integrated within an accounting package, a lot of the material I have not covered.

So who wins ? Those with years of experience or those with the qualifications... I really do not know. Why am I doing it, so that one day in the future I too can work for myself.

I however have asked accountancy firms for a little work experience, and have been told sorry, but we cannot help you.

So where do we go from here, I think no matter how you have arrived at the point you are at, its having the confidence to put all of it into practice, and believing in yourself.
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there is so much in there that I have never covered. Costings for a start...

Ugh, Costing *shudders*. I hate costing!

Good luck with your studies :)
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Most people would hate costing, particulary variance analysis. But I would go a step futher and advocate for activity based costing. Using this costing you would identify actual underlying cost. As costing is a most important part of the management accounts and anylysis!
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Most people would hate costing, particulary variance analysis. But I would go a step futher and advocate for activity based costing. Using this costing you would identify actual underlying cost. As costing is a most important part of the management accounts and anylysis!
I think I studied activity based, and yes costing is very useful in industry.
I'm doing my best to forget it all and concentrate on tax (the interesting part!)!! :D
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If you embark on this course you will have to give up on ACCA as students are not allowed to set up in practice. If you are able to study to complete this qualification while working - do so. Your long term earnings will be far more - DO NOT BE DISTRACTED BY THE IDEA OF RUNNING YOUR OWN SHOW TOO SOON.
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